We’re living in a world that has become extraordinarily skilled at measuring success. But most of us never stop to question which standards really matter to us. Are you chasing success by someone else’s definition, without even knowing it? This episode will help you figure that out.

My guest is C Thi Nguyen, Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Utah and the author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game, one of the most thought-provoking books I’ve read. This conversation explores where our values really come from, what games and hobbies can teach us about living with freedom, and why so much of what matters most in life resists being measured at all.

Thi has developed a fascinating framework for understanding one of the defining problems of modern life: what he calls ‘value capture’. It’s the process by which our own rich, personal values are replaced by simplified external metrics (think followers and likes, salaries, exam grades – even health metrics like your weight or blood pressure score). These metrics can never show the full picture of a human life – but they can end up running it. And once you understand this concept of value capture, you’ll start to notice it everywhere.

Thi and I discuss why our culture is so poor at honouring the ‘unmeasurables’. We talk about why joy, love, forgiveness and the quality of our relationships are the substance of a life well lived. Yet they’re systematically undervalued, not because they’re unimportant, but because they’re hard to count.

He’s somewhat of an expert on play, whether through sport, board games or hobbies, and we discuss what these activities, often dismissed as trivial, can teach us about meaning and how to live well. Plus, we debate the difference between principles and algorithmic rules – a distinction that might change how you approach your health and your life more broadly.

What I love about Thi’s thinking is that he’s not telling us to throw out all forms of measurement. He’s more nuanced than that. He is asking us to wake up to the difference between the scorecard we have inherited from the world around us, and the one we would choose for ourselves. He wants us to know that the first step towards genuine fulfilment is simply becoming aware of whose game you have been playing.

Watch the video version of the conversation here: